Question about Amazon swords and adding Fe to help them(UPDATE)

Hi
My Amazon swords are struggling a little. I bought Ferrumsulphate (hope it is the right word) from my pharmacy. It's a small green pill. They said it is a cheap Iron vitamin. Gonna add it but need to know how much +-.
It is a 50 liter tank with 45% of the plants being Amazon swords. I am leaning towards 1 pill once a month.
Is it too much?

 

Re: Question about Amazon swords and adding Fe to help them

Hi Hendrik
I found that pushing some steel nails (those that rust) under the roots is sufficient for Amazons. Panel pins work great.

 

Re: Question about Amazon swords and adding Fe to help them

Hi Hendrik,

What is your soil like in Bloemfontein? Red? Wet some, roll it into a mud ball and when this is dry stick it in between the roots of the amazons. Otherwise, small iron nails pressed between the roots also works well. I don't like the idea of liquid iron salt supplements. For one they get oxidised and this produces acid

Fe[sup]2+[/sup] + 3H[sub]2[/sub]O => Fe(OH)[sub]3[/sub] (solid precipiate) + 3H[sup]+[/sup]

The Fe precipitate will be useless to the plant until it works into the substrate and the roots can break it down. Clay or iron nails will give just as fast a result and not mess with the pH. Also, the iron can be toxic due to something called the Fenton reaction which produces free radicals under physiological conditions.

Now, the big question: what is wrong with the swords? It may not be an iron deficiency at all. If you are seeing chlorosis it may well be a magnesium deficiency. If there are holes in the leaves then it is calcium. The problem is rarely iron as the substrate is normally full of it thanks to the fish poop.

Generally, iron fertilizers are added as an iron chelate (Fe[sup]2+[/sup] + a carrier such as EDTA) to protect the iron against oxidation. Many of the aquarium fertilizers are provided like this but there is a problem in that in our soft water conditions the only way for the carrier to release the iron is by replacing with with Mg or Ca ions, normally taken from the plant causing chlorosis or deformed leaves. For this reason Prof. Bellstedt has developed a fertilizer combo which makes sure this damaging exchange doesn't happen. Search for DSD on the forum and see what the Prof has to say.

Hope I've helped some what...

 

Re: Question about Amazon swords and adding Fe to help them

I already have 3 or 4 nails in the substrate. Think they are releasing too slow.
Gonna try the iron pills as I read that people are using them to add iron for the Amazons.
Apparently the nails are slow releasing.

 

Re: Question about Amazon swords and adding Fe to help them

My substrate is pool filter sand. I am adding Fidalin vitamin drops that you get for babies as a vitamin additive.
The one I have has, as mentioned on the bottle, extra iron. As soon as I add it, the swords grow really well and the leaves are greener. The leaves are dying after a while. The are also getting brown holes on them before they die.
I don't mind if the iron pills has a acid effect as my pH is very high. It is something in the 9 range.

 

Re: Question about Amazon swords and adding Fe to help them

What can I add that is calcium based for the plants? Want to try it to see if it maybe helps.
Might be a calcium shortage.

 

Re: Question about Amazon swords and adding Fe to help them

Something I can get at a pharmacy? Anything else in the kitchen maybe?

 

Re: Question about Amazon swords and adding Fe to help them

If there is a positive response to the Fe from the vitamins then it may well be an iron problem. The high pH makes it harder work for the plants to get the iron out of the substrate. You can try stick in more nails but some clay balls may work better. Pool filter sand is very nutrient poor.

The holes in the leaves are probably an potassium deficiency. The plant is shedding the leaves to get the K back from them for new growth. It may also be taking out Mg and Ca---your substrate is very nutrient poor.

To adjust the Mg/Ca problem you can:
a: work some dolomite chips into the substrate. This is slow acting. If you can stick this into the filter then it will work faster.
b: add Mg and Ca by one or another supplement such as Prof Bellstedt's water hardening mix. A simple way to add Mg is to add some epson salts. Say, 2 g (half a tea spoon) per 100 L to get 20 ppm. Check and see if the plants respond...

Potassium is also supplied in Prof's mix so it is by far the best option. To test if it is a K deficiency, get some no-salt salt (this has a large amount of KCl in it) and add about 4 grams to get 20 ppm K. See if there is a response...

Mixing some red clay ground into the pool filter sand may solve all your problems.

 

Re: Question about Amazon swords and adding Fe to help them

I remember a few months back I PM'ed him to get prices and info for the druppels as I was looking to buy some. Unfortunately I have not received a response. Thanks for the replies so far.

The unfortunate thing is that I know the pool filter sand has absolutely no nutrients to feed them. I started to experiment with the vitamins that we had left over that my son was not using anymore. It had a major effect. The swords were making new leaves every week and growing very beautifully. I stopped adding after I saw it is chasing up the pH which I was trying to stabilize at 7,5. The plants started to become poorer until now that I finally decided to fix it up. So it is time to play. I also decided not to fight the pH anymore. Leaving it the way it comes out the tap. I think I am gonna use 1 iron pill tonight and monitor it over the next week or two. Will look for the other stuff and add it also.

 

Seems to be working. The Amazon's leafs are much greener and they are sprouting some new leaves that look much healthier than the previous new leaves they sprouted.

 

My experience with Echinodorus has shown that, with the exception of E. bertoroi, they don't like their water to be too acidic - anything below pH6.5 results in stunting - they prefer a pH of around neutral to around 9 and medium hard water although hard water does not adversely affect them. E. bertoroi is an exception in that it prefers soft, acidic water otherwise you will find that it precipitates calcium on its leaves.

In nature the only two Echinodorus that are permanently submerged (obligate aquatics) are E. amazonicus and E. parviflorus, the rest of them all grow where they are sumbmersed during the rain dry season and totally exposed during the dry season. They also grow where the substrate is very rich - they are marsh plants so think of thick muddy soil that gets a good input of silt every year during flood.

They have very robust root systems and although like all submersed plants they can absorb nutrients through their leaves, they do best when provided with a nutritious, balanced substrate. The problem with the rusty nail trick in your set-up is that the substrate is inert. In order for the plant to use iron it must be in contact with humic acid [Tyrone maybe you can give us the formula for what actually happens to iron in contact with humic acid?]. This makes it biologicall available. So no humic acid and iron is not easily available - unless you dosing with chelated iron - and even that is under scrutiny now! Check out http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/n ... iron.shtml

So the best thing you can do is make balls of red clay (pottery clay or old red bricks) that have some completely decomposed organic material added - proper peat is good otherwise make some leaf mould (thin soft leaves put into a porous bag - add some fertillizer to speed the process up and keep moist and warm - it will be fine black-brown particulate matter when ready). Put twenty cent piece sized balls into you substrate - two or three spaced around every plant. And watch the magic!

Cheers

Robin

 

Only bleach (Cl)and oxygen (O) can do the following:

4Fe + 3O[sub]2[/sub] => 2Fe[sub]2[/sub]O[sub]3[/sub] This is rust. Now if we add water:

Fe[sub]2[/sub]O[sub]3[/sub] + 3H[sub]2[/sub]O => 2Fe(OH)[sub]3[/sub] (s) which is insoluble (the oxygen in water oxidizes the Fe[sup]2+[/sup] to Fe[sup]3+[/sup]).

For plants to get hold of the iron all they need do is apply acid:

Fe(OH)[sub]3[/sub] + 3H[sup]+[/sup] => Fe[sup]3+[/sup] + 3H[sub]2[/sub]O

Plant excrete acid from their roots for just such a reason. They will use the acid to break down calcite (CaCO[sub]3[/sub]) and other alkali minerals. They will also use the acid to force cations off silicates. (Silicates are negatively charges and attract positively charges ions.)

Having an acid substrate means the plants have to work less to get at the iron and other minerals but a too acid substrate means the plants can't take up the cations because they use anti-port and symport systems where positive charges from the inside of the plants cell is swapped for positive charges on the outside.

The problem with the silica sand/gravel is that it has a lot of ion holding capability. The plants will need to excrete a lot of acid before they can force the cations off the silicates. It takes a long time for the silica sand to be a good growing medium (i.e. before it has stored up enough nutrients).

So what about adding iron?

If you react iron with acid you get the following:

Fe + 2H[sup]+[/sup] --> Fe[sup]2+[/sup] + H[sub]2[/sub] Acid can't make Fe[sup]3+[/sup] but water can:

Fe[sup]2+[/sup] + 3H[sub]2[/sub]O -> Fe(OH)[sub]3[/sub] + 3H[sup]+[/sup]

Only the Fe[sup]2+[/sup] is biologically active and this is what is added in fertilizers and supplements. For plants to use Fe[sup]3+[/sup] they must first convert it to Fe[sup]2+[/sup]. There are various enzymes that perform this trick but many of the polyphenols from plant materials (i.e. humic acids) will also reduce the acid to the Fe[sup]2+[/sup] form. I can't find the exact reaction but in essence the acid will be oxidized and another carboxyl group added (making it more soluble). But don't think simply adding humic acid will help dissolve iron. Humic acid, like other polyphenols, will eagerly chelate cations such as Fe[sup]2+[/sup] making them unavailable to the plants (which is why very little grows in peat bogs).

 

Why not put some clay balls under the roots. Since I have done that, my plants have flourished.

 

Guys,

The iron that plants need is Fe2+ and not Fe3+. If you add ferrous sulphate, which is Fe2+ SO4=, then within 24 hours all of the Fe2+ will be oxidised to Fe3+ which is unavailable for plants. So you can add as much of this as you want but you are not going to overcome the iron shortage. This also gets worse as the pH drops as Biologic has correctly indicated. You can overcome this by adding Fe2+ in stabilized form as iron chelate, but this gets you into the next set of problems and that is that if you do not have enough Calcium in the water the plants will have to give off calcium to the chelator in exchange for the iron when they take it up and this will then cause the plant to collapse because calcium is essential for plant as well. Holes will develop in the leaves as a result.

I have explained these concepts on this forum over and over again, and the bottom line is that you need a balanced mixture of components in order to achieve proper plant growth and not this hodge podge from one bottle of chemicals to the next.

I will fully admit that my comments here are biased because I have developed fertilizers which overcome all of these problems, but if you want some of these please contact me by PM, this will save you a tremendous amount of money and hassle in the process and your plants will grow properly.

Biologic, if you use my mixes, then the pH issue that you have raised is no longer so relevant. In principle, Amazon sword plants come from acidic waters and should have no problem in growing in acidic water as long as the correct nutrients in a form that is available are supplied.

Kind regards,

Dirk

 

Just a new update. I am feeling that I am going to try the clay ball with fertilizer to enrich my pool filter sand substrate a little.
Just want to run my idea past you guys:
1. Gonna get this very dark brown garden clay. Bloemfontein is renowned for it's cracking buildings due to clay soil.
2. want to add a little bit of potting soil to it to give it extra enrichment.Not much, just a little.
3. What fertilizer would you suggest? I don't want to go and buy and am thinking of using the one's used on grass which I have with me. Someone suggested sometime in the past I use 14-14-14.
But as mentioned, I don't really want to go and buy a bag if I already have something I could possibly use.

Last thing. Will this not have a negative effect on the fish? Referring to the fertilizer.

 

Hi Hendrik,

Your clay may be ok, but your potting soil and fertilizer idea is a disaster. It will lead to algal growth and with the high nitrogen amount this will be detrimental if not lethal to your fishes.

Kind regards,

Dirk

 

Hi Dirk. I dropped you a PM. Think I must go to your special drops to stop me from fiddling around the whole time and possibly causing a disaster in the tank. Please let me know if you received my PM as I did send in the past but didn't get a reply. Don't know if I did something wrong w.r.t sending a PM. Cheers.

 

Maybe I must rephrase my sentence.
As I understand, the 14-14-14 fertilizer is a waterlily fert. I don't want to buy a full bag of it for a small fish tank. The plant sticks sounds better to buy as it is small and can be used up. Think I will look into that bat guano too. can put it into a clay ball and let it dry in the sun and when done push it down to the bottom underneath each amazon sword's roots.