Average plant growth

Discussion in 'Plant Problems' started by Jagwa, May 23, 2013.

  1. Jagwa
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    Jagwa Noob

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    Hi,

    I am wondering if anybody can spot what I am doing wrong if anything. I am trying to achieve lush plant growth but at the moment I would classify it as medium to slow. I currently have 4 different plant species.

    Eleocharis vivipara (plantlets form at the top of the leaf) - These plants are actually growing fairly quickly and I am happy with them.
    Pogostemon helferi - They are growing fairly slowly.
    Bacopa monnieri - Growing at a medium to slow pace.
    Another Stem that gets a nice red colour near the top but the bottom leaves die away.

    Failed Plants
    HC and glosso

    My setup is as follows.

    volume = 200L (cubish shape)
    soil = ADA amazonia aquasoil
    CO2 = pressurised
    GH = 12
    KH = 4
    pH = 6.5
    ferts = ADA Green Brightly Step 3 daily (10ml as per instructions)
    Lighting = DIY LED's Cree XP-G 6500K (when running the data sheet indicates I should have about 9000 lumens at my current)

    The spectral density of these LED's can be seen in the following pic.
    [​IMG]

    So they have alot of light in the blue range.

    According to another source, this is what is required
    [​IMG]

    Im no expert but my LED's do not provide anything at the correct "Red" wavelengths. Is this my problem? Am I expecting my plants to grow too fast? Or is there something else which I am missing.
     
  2. David13
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    David13 Noob

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    All your ingredients seem to be adequate, but it is most probably something to do with your LED's
    You said HC and glosso failed to grow, elaborate.....
    What symptoms were they showing, those plants are good indicators of sufficient lighting conditions.
    I'm also no expert but I've been in that boat before man.
     
  3. JP01
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    JP01 Moderator Staff Member

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    HC and glosso need harder water, try adding some crushed coral to your filter
     
  4. Daniel HR
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    Daniel HR Algae harvester

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    Looks all right but I think it might be your lights.......?
     
  5. Slagter
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    Slagter Aquascaper

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    What about potassium? You dosing any of that yet? brightly K is potassium.
     
  6. Jagwa
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    Jagwa Noob

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    The glosso and HC grew extrememly slowly until some hair algae got hold of it and I had to remove it. The hair algae doesnt grow on anything else. I have quite a bit of crushed coral in the filter. I did a water change the day before I tested so the KH will only increase from 4. I am also only dosing green brightly step 3 which does have potassium in it. Although I only started dosing step three this week and step 2 does not have any potassium. I am going to try and see what I can do about the lighting. I have a 5W LED that outputs only royal blue which is about 460nm. I use it as a moon light but I am going to turn it on with the rest of the lights now to see if there is any difference.
     
  7. shihr
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    shihr Administrator Staff Member

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    Ur KH is Waaay too high. Lessen the coral in your filter. Hair algae is also from high KH and lowish nitrates..
     
  8. Jagwa
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    Jagwa Noob

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    Ok, will do that today. What should my goal be for KH
     
  9. tyronegenade
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    tyronegenade Specialist

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    Ok, at 350 mA (the most efficient current for your LED) to get 9000 lumens you need about 68 LEDs---is this what you have? My data is from Greystoke's lighting database: http://www.apsa.co.za/board/http://www.apsa.co.za/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=4

    If you tank is cubish and 200 L that means you have a tank of about 58 x 58 x 58 cm---correct? By the time light has traveled 30cm through the water column it has lost 50% of the red light. By 50 cm of water depth you have about 33% of your original light output. Your lamps can push out, at most, 1.72 PAR/W. To obtain 123 PPF at the water surface you need to have at least 62 PAR over the tank. Your LEDs produce (at most) 1.72 PAR/W so that is about 36 W of LEDs.

    The good news is that there is something about the LEDs which makes them more efficient than our calculations and you may only need a quarter of 36 (we are yet to figure this out where the mathematical slip is happening) but this is still 9 W of LEDs, no 5. It is very likely that you are not providing enough light for the glosso etc... you want to grow. Similarly, the other plants may also be short of light.

    The analogy we use here is that CO2 is the fuel for plant growth and light the accelerator. If you want faster growth you need to put your foot on the gas.

    Can you provide pictures of your setup as well as details about your lighting (wattage, number of LEDs, bias current etc...) in particular how high above the tank it is (as you lose 75% of the power at 60 cm from the light source).

    I don't think there is anything wrong with a KH of 4 so my money is on a lighting issue.
     
  10. shihr
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    shihr Administrator Staff Member

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    Oops sorry I meant ur GH is too high.. I would aim for max 10
     
  11. Greystoke
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    Greystoke Specialist

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    I agree with Richard. Your GH is way too high and that may cause a problem. I suggest you do a big WC.

    As for the LEDs . . . it is common to combine Cool Whites (5600K) with Warm Whites (3300K) in a ratio of about 3:1, in order to get enough red in the spectrum. It helps a lot.
     
  12. Lloydster
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    Lloydster Green fingers

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    i would drop the GH also, HOWEVER! i will put money on it that either your light is not sufficient and your CO2 saturation and distribution is lacking .
     
  13. Jagwa
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    Jagwa Noob

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    I am using 11 indus star xp-g with three LED's on each. At 350mA they produce 354 lumens and at 700 mA 635 lumens (that value is with 3 LED's). I have them running at about 900mA which is less than the recommended maximum of 1A to guarentee perfmance and lifetime. How can I estimate my PAR without a meter? The tank is 45cm deep and here is a link.

    http://www.apsa.co.za/board/http://www.apsa.co.za/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=4

    I have increased the number of LED's since those photos were taken.
     
  14. Rudi
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    Rudi Algae harvester

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    I always think of aquarium plant lighting as less is more.
    I would reduce that lighting not increase it.Then sort out your CO2 diffusing.You can pump in 10,20 bubbles per second,but if 3/4 of it just rides up to the surface and disappears into the atmosphere it is no use.

    Your tank is very close to a cube and cubes are difficult to get gas distribution correct.I looked at the pictures in the journal and you have your inlet and outlet at the back of the tank.Ideally you need them on the side,on the 600mm side,pushing the flow across the tank.Then your diffuser should be on the opposite side,the flow created by your inlet will then push the CO2 bubbles down and suck it back to wards the outlet where the inlet will pull it up again.

    When you have so much light and poor CO2 diffusion/distribution two things can happen,algae or your plants are literally exhausted.The light drives the plants so hard,they will grow them selfs to death.
     
  15. tyronegenade
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    tyronegenade Specialist

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    Hello,

    Ok, I used Greystoke's LED data to calculate your PAR output and it comes to 132.5 PAR. This works out to be (132.5/(0.45 x 0.6)) ~491 PPFD (microE/m2/s) over your tank (assuming all of the light hits the water's surface). How much is entering the tank I have no idea... but you have A LOT of light. With the correct CO2 and fertilizer regime you should have a tank that looks like WBS' (he has a slightly lower PPFD last time I checked). So the issue has to be nutrients (you haven't given us NO3 etc concentrations) or CO2.

    Move your CO2 checker lower down in the tank, as close to the substrate as you can get it and see what it tells you. In the mean time, dim the LEDs to half of what they are currently running at. Note the below graph:
    [​IMG]

    Note that as you increase the current you do get more PAR from the lamp BUT your efficiency decreases. So, by reducing the current you are getting more bang for you buck. Also, consider the graph at http://www.apsa.co.za/board/http://www.apsa.co.za/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=109062#p109062 From about 40 PPFD you get a far smaller % increase in plant growth for every % point increase in PPFD. From about 250 PPFD you really are wasting your money...

    You only need 40 PPFD at substrate level which would mean a PAR input of about 264 PPFD input from the lamps (in you case 71 PAR).

    So, bottom line, more light is not necessarily more plant growth and using less light can be better than more light.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 11, 2014
  16. Jagwa
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    Jagwa Noob

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    Thanks for all the effort guys. I really appreciate it. Will make all the adjustments and Ill get back to you.
     
  17. tyronegenade
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    tyronegenade Specialist

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    Rather make one adjustment at a time. This way you can be more precise in identifying the problem and then let us know what it was.

    I would start messing with the CO2.

    Once I was sure that was right I would then make sure the nutrient levels are correct, so get a Nitrate test kit and lay off the K until you know the N is right. Too much K relative to everything else can cause problems such as stunted growth. This is normally less of a problem in aquariums than for land plants.

    Once the nutrients are right start dropping the light intensity until you see some effective.

    Happy plants pearl. You may not notice it immediately, but if you get home and the lights have been on for several hours and you don't see bubbles under the leaves then the plants are not happy.
     

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